Life Unscripted with Kevin Shook
Welcome to 'Life Unscripted with Kevin Shook', a heartening podcast where embracing vulnerability is the key to success. Join your host, Kevin, as he dives into the stories of remarkable individuals who have transformed their lives by opening up, facing challenges, and finding strength in their most vulnerable moments. Each episode features inspiring conversations with guests from various walks of life. Kevin's journey of embracing vulnerability has led him to meet amazing people, and now he brings their wisdom, laughter, and insights to you. Tune in and discover how embracing your vulnerabilities can lead to your greatest victories in life, both personally & professionally.
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Life Unscripted with Kevin Shook
Weaving Empathy into the Gavel's Echo: The Journey of Law with Ron Moore
When the gavel falls, it's not just laws echoing through the courtroom but human stories and struggles. Today's profound discussion with our distinguished guest, a legal professional with a heart for service, reveals the delicate balance judges must strike between legal frameworks and the emotional complexities of those who stand before them. We delve into the nuances of family law and paternity cases, shedding light on the importance of recognizing the person behind the lawsuit and the need for more robust support systems for veterans, through proposals like a specialized veterans court.
The journey from the cap and gown to diapers and family court can be a tumultuous one for young adults in our fast-paced world. As local attorney, Ron Moore reflects on his 27-year legal career, our conversation underscores the value of mentorship programs and the crucial role of mediation in de-escalating conflicts, offering a beacon of hope for navigating life's choppy waters. We also look ahead at the potential for positive change within Wayne County's legal system, envisioning a future where judges play an instrumental role in community well-being and conflict resolution.
As our guest shares his own aspirations for the judiciary, we're reminded that the fabric of justice is woven with threads of experience, empathy, and wisdom. From his modest beginnings to his path toward a judgeship, we explore the qualities that define a capable guardian of the law. His personal commitment to return and guide us through the life of a judge, should he achieve his goal, promises to offer listeners an exclusive behind-the-scenes look at the intersection of justice and compassion in our legal system.
Life Inscripted with Kevin Shook.
Speaker 2:So in paternity cases it's mother and father, it's husband and wife. It's the idea that we can get things worked out because we have at some point in our lives seen eye to eye with someone enough to have a child Right. Yeah, have a child together, you know, have a family together.
Speaker 1:I feel like you just looked right through my soul when you said, at some point in your life you should have a child, right? Because I don't have any of that shit. I have a cat. I've seen a naked cat. I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure it counts as a catch life inscripted with kevin shook on youtube bus sprout, spotify and apple podcast nothing that happens in this world is not affected by the law and we can't have a judiciary that's not aware of that. It's not a situation where you can really sit back and say okay, in a cold and detached application of the law, without an understanding of humanity, without an understanding of what's going on and truly affecting people, whether it's a divorce or a paternity case, or inability to pay child support, or inability to pay your student loans or your mortgages in default, or any number of things that are painful to you, that's creating stress in your life that has either caused you to commit a crime or just simply put you in a position where you know you've lost hope, despair. Those kinds of things have really truly impacted me, because I know that our job as a judiciary has to be some consideration of those individual human elements. Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well said, and I'm thinking. You know Wayne County, we're not Marion County. Can you imagine being a judge in Marion County? You wouldn't. You have such a large population that you. I don't think you'd be able to effectively do what you're doing, to go out in the community and really grasp the concept of what's going on with some of these people and why are they really in the position they're in and what's that actually? You know you get them from A to B but you prevent them from going back to A. Yeah, you don't want to see them backtrack.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:I think we're a small enough community that that's really helpful community that that's really helpful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if a judiciary can really adopt that and be put in a position where they can truly help people, then I'm all aboard. Right, those are the kinds of things I think we need to have.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely we need to have that. No, that's good stuff.
Speaker 2:It's an interesting dynamic. You know, when you brought up Marion County, it really kind of it tells me that we have to deal with the concept of our court systems being overwhelmed. Oh, and you have to know, and I want people to know, that that is the case here. Right, Our judges are overwhelmed. They're very hardworking.
Speaker 1:So basically, the bandwidth is being taken up too much and it's really hard for them to get out in the community and do some of the extra to get the no, and I think that's what you're saying it is and the problem solving courts that we have are going to require a lot of extra time from these judges, and that's why you know I'm going to be dedicated to it.
Speaker 2:You know, putting in the time and going into work every day isn't really the issue. The issue is whether or not you have the support staff and support systems in order to be able to use time effectively, to put more dedication into problem-solving courts like behavioral health courts, mental health courts, substance abuse courts, veterans courts, those kinds of things. You know, judges' jobs is not to apply law any differently than what was intended by our legislature, and our legislature has given a specific set of what's criminal act and what's not.
Speaker 1:Are there any specific support systems that you plan on implementing for veterans, maybe to help with their mental health, with their addiction, with their lack of support by the government? Health? With their addiction with their lack of support by the government. Yeah, I mean, I'll openly say like they're not supported enough after they come back from Iraq and everything.
Speaker 2:Man. That's incredible, you know. Let me back up a little bit. I want to tell you a little bit about my history. My grandfather was in the military. Both of my parents were over 20-year veterans in the military. I swore the oath in 1987, got hurt and got an honorable discharge in 1988. I served stateside. I didn't have any. I was actually in ROTC at the time and did some training but never went active duty. So I'm actually what's called an Air Force ROTC, air Force Veteran Reservist. And then my son, our son, my wife and I. Our son is Nick and he's a cadet at the United States Air Force Academy. So when I tell you that you know veterans programs are important to me, I mean it's really genuinely earnest in acknowledging that we need more services for veterans.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Now, what I find interesting is that we don't have a veterans court here. We don't have a lot of veterans here who are committing offenses. We do have a VA here, we do have an active VA.
Speaker 2:We have a lot of active members going and utilizing the VA clinic that's here up on North J Street. Fortunately, we've got a prosecutor system that honors our veterans, but I still think that if a case is presented that has veterans issues and I can think of a few and I don't want to talk about them specifically but I think we have some real issues in certain situations and you hit it right on the head. When veterans come back from foreign wars and they come back into stateside, their first job or their first objective, rather, is their first objective is they want to go home. And when they want to go home, they're going to tell the people that are interviewing them all the right answers and they're not going to disclose the real issues that are going on in their life. So when, when veterans are coming back and they're giving all the right answers, even though it may not be the truth, they get integrated back into the society without any treatment, without any support system, and when stressors happen, those stressors create significant problems for law enforcement, because these men and women were trained they're trained to kill In the military Right absolutely so they're trained in ways to really be a problem for our law enforcement community. So our objectives really are should be to provide services for them immediately.
Speaker 2:And you know, it's nice to have a veterans court in Delaware County that's Muncie but we don't have one here and our community is, you know, just as much veterans as anywhere else and I think that we need to have that availability for us to to have a veterans court, just to simply have it. And I I I don't know that necessarily we're going to receive a lot of pushback from from the prosecutor's office or anything like that. But you know, if a judge has an opportunity to analyze a case, again from the individual's facts, from the law that's applied and knowing that their individual character of the person who's involved in a case, whether it's a divorce or whether it's a you know, a case that needs a protective order, or whether it's a paternity case, or their parenting style or those kinds of things, if we know they're a veteran, then I think we should honor them and give them the ability to be better. And again, I think those kinds of things are going to put us in a position where our community is tighter, our community is stronger, our ability to have a great quite know, quite honestly, a better, tighter community is going to make us all safer. It's going to make our community safer. It's going to preserve family values. It's going to put us in a position where we can uphold, you know, uphold the rule of law in a way that really makes us all a better community.
Speaker 2:You know, I hear people talk about the great days of Richmond. Now, you know, my gosh, I, I I've lived here for 27 years and I still I wouldn't stay. I wouldn't have stayed here if I didn't love it. To be quite honest, with you.
Speaker 2:And I think Richmond is a great, great place, I think Wayne County is a great place. We have some real gems here and I, I tell you when I, when I say that I love it here, I really truly mean it. I tell you when I say that I love it here, I really truly mean it. And we have an opportunity to make it even better. Oh, absolutely. And those things are recognizing and honoring our veterans, honoring our police force, honoring our firefighters, honoring the people who make us safer, and we have a lot of those folks who still are hurting and again being intimately tied to the affairs of people. That's where you learn about them, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, putting them first versus anything else, because I know, you know, a lot of them coming back from war or just serving and like, well, I didn't even serve and I got popped with PTSD and everything else. So you get popped with all these labels and stuff and it makes things 10 times harder. Sometimes, um, especially, I imagine, um, I mean I've never been locked up, but I imagine, um, you know, just taking that person and not really knowing their whole story and understanding the lack of services that they sought after or that were offered to them, and blocking them up, man, that would that just makes it worse. That's like maybe the community's safer but it's worse on them. So it's kind of like you know, there is a spot, there's a, there's an area there, a great area, where you want to rehabilitate at the same time. So I, being a judge, it just yeah, kudos, that would be really hard yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, it's taking all of the things that we know about people and applying them so that, so that there's a fair opportunity to, to to really make a difference you know Absolutely Um.
Speaker 1:So another question um cultural change and courtroom dynamics. Uh, you talked about a winner takes all mentality in courtrooms. Yeah, Um, how did you plan to foster a culture of unity and cooperation, especially in family law?
Speaker 2:Well, let me kind of couch that in a more broad statement perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a little bit more of a broad perspective. I got a phone call today about tenants and how tenants get along well with one another tenants and how tenants get along well with one another, and the discussion that I had with this individual was, quite honestly, hostile. Right, it was hostile. If our job as an attorney is to help make people better, at the end of it, the first thing we have to do is ratchet down tensions, ratchet down behaviors, calm people down so that we can sit at the same table and talk it out. And, as an attorney, if our objectives are to make our community safer and stronger and all the things I was talking about preserving family values and upholding rules of law and ultimately in rules of law and ultimately in family law situations boy it sure would be nice if lawyers and judges didn't have to get involved at all.
Speaker 2:Right, absolutely as honest, as simple as that is to say yeah, as simple as that is to say, we want to be able to give people tools to make their lives better themselves, so they don't end up in a litigious situation because, quite honestly, in in the courtroom, um, you've got a judge or a jury making decisions about facts that can impact their lives.
Speaker 2:Who better to make decisions about your life than you, right? So if we can empower them, put them in positions whether it's through mediation or alternative dispute resolution, or putting them with a guardian ad litem that they trust and like, or having ombudsmen or community leaders get together to enable them to how to talk to one another, how to communicate with one another, how to be a good parent, if objectives are met in that fashion, then, my gosh, I think we're going to be a better off society because our courtrooms are going to be less packed. The interesting thing about that process is that about, I want to say, in 1997 or so, judge Horn was instrumental in redrafting our family law rules, our local family law rules. Some of the things that we do is, for example, in Marion County other counties throughout Indiana a husband and wife in a litigation case are called petitioner and respondent. Whoever files first is the petitioner and whoever second doesn't file is the respondent.
Speaker 2:Well, in Wayne County our rules say a person who files first doesn't matter and it's the father and the mother if they have children right, or father and and, uh, you know, you have litigants who are actually labeled by what they are and it doesn't make someone a petitioner and a respondent because it's so callous. It doesn't foster the ideas of resolving cases amicably. So in paternity cases, it's mother and father, it's husband and wife, it's the idea that we can get things worked out because we have at some point in our lives, seen eye to eye with someone enough to Be more connected.
Speaker 1:Have a child Right yeah, they. Have a child Right yeah they have a child together.
Speaker 2:You know they have a family together.
Speaker 1:I feel like you just looked right through my soul when you said at some point in your life you should have a child, Right? Because I don't have any of that shit. I have a cat. I've seen you A naked cat. I'm not sure it counts as a cat. Right, it acts like a dog. I walked it the other day on a leash. I saw that it's pretty cool. But yeah, yeah, be more personable.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when Judge Horne rewrote those rules again, I was part of that committee and that process that's still in place today is absolutely foreign to attorneys from other counties. They'll file stuff and it says petitioner and respondent and the judges go no, no, no, we are husband and wife, we are mother and father. And that's how the case has to be recaptured, so that people can start with the understanding that they have to respect one another as parents and as former husband and wife, so that they can look towards an amicable resolution, not for themselves but for their children. And in family law cases we've seen a development in the law and in the courtroom where litigants had this winner-take-all mentality. It's an imperiousness, it's a, it's a callous behavior, it's arrogance, it's young people not understanding that they have brought a person into the world that needs both people both sides, yeah, and you have to co-parent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, or else we end up with a chaotic society. Right, I mean we have to have. And when I say I believe in mentorship and young people and needing people to lead them, I mean it. I mean I've put my money where my mouth is. I go out there and I've spent a lot of time. I spent 15 years maybe not quite that long 12 years with Boy Scouts. I spent many years with Big Brothers, big Sisters, because we need young people to know what it's like to have a good influence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that kind of ties into one of our last episodes. That kind of ties into one of our last episodes. We talked about society's pressures on young people to develop so fastly, to get married so quick, to have children so fast. And what happens is, well, they're urged to go to college right after high school. So, college, marriage, kid, before they're 25.
Speaker 1:And it's kind of like, well, well, that's what mom and dad told us to do, right, so they end up going to college for the wrong thing, working at a job that didn't need that degree, having all that debt, and then getting married to the wrong person because they were in a hurry to get married, and then having a kid with the wrong person. And now they're in the courtroom, yeah, and you're, and, and now it's you're kind, well, all right, let's sort this out Exactly Because, you know, with that whole scenario I just laid out, you got financial stress, and then you got. Now you're getting a divorce, and so there's so many things compiled. And it's not only that, but now. But now, dad, if it's a winner, take all we want to, take all dad's pension, something like that. Well, guess what?
Speaker 2:dad might go batshit crazy, yeah, and now we got a whole different crime that's going to be committed yeah, it's the stressors, because begin to add up and it's all started with all of those things you were talking yeah, yeah, so I could see where the whole winners take all, or that could just lead to disaster.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that mentality has been more prevalent in society in general. But you know, I see it in the courtroom primarily, but I see it in my office. You know, when folks come in and they're like no, I'm rolling the dice on this one, we're going to the box, we're taking this case. We're going to the box, we're taking this case all the way, we're going to make the judge make the decision.
Speaker 2:And my caution stems from a wisdom that those kinds of mentalities don't always work best for either the children or for themselves, or for whatever the case might be.
Speaker 2:We have to foster relationships and those relationships are on both sides of the courtroom and I think that you know, for the last 27 years I've been representing one person.
Speaker 2:You know one side of the courtroom and I've done a really good job with that and I've gained a lot of respect from my peers and from the judges and it's put me in a position now where I feel like I can help both sides of the courtroom. So helping one side to come to terms with that concept of mediation and middle ground has been very effective for me and I've really enjoyed it. I've enjoyed helping people Because, again, my mentality is that our job isn't to navigate them through the maze of a legal case, but rather to help them be better at the end of it. I firmly believe that, and I will always believe that, and so for that lengthy period of time that I've been practicing law, it's been a very interesting process, but now I think I can help more people by being behind the bench, and that's where your experience, my experience, puts me in a position where I know that I'm the right person for the job.
Speaker 1:That's cool, man. I couldn't agree more with everything you've told me. Last few questions you pretty much hit already, so I'm going to leave you with. What does the future look like for Wayne County's legal system If you were the judge and you had all the decision making to do? If you were the judge and you had all the decision making to do, so what would what with your role, that you would take, how would you contribute to it and what is your vision?
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, that's a really big question. I really appreciate it. You know, my my take on the practice of law is that it's a noble profession and that we have a responsibility to be fair, to give everyone a voice, to make sure that everyone is heard and to enable them to help make decisions jointly and collectively. Sometimes decisions have to be made and you got to be a strong, conservative person who can make decisions if they can't. And so where do I see myself? I see myself continuing the legacy of the prior judges that we've had, who've been such great persons to me and mentors to me Maybe not directly as a mentor, but at least you know being in their courtrooms.
Speaker 2:It's been baptism by fire for me. You know it's a. You go in there and you're there every day in the courtroom as a litigator and you see how a courtroom works. All of the court case types that I've been practicing for the last, you know, two decades or more have been the types of cases that happen in superior court one. And when you know you have that kind of relationship with the current judges who are there and the other attorneys that are in that courtroom. That baptism by fire has taught me how to be the guy who can be behind the bench right, and the legacy that we have from our judges has been phenomenal. We've had an amazing bench, whether it's Judge Ranke or Judge Van Middlesworth, judge Colger, judge Tom Snow. You know, judge Horn, judge Van Middlesworth, judge Kolger, judge Tom Snow, judge Horn, judge Dallahaney these judges have all put us in a position where, you know, put me in a position where I can truly see myself behind the bench Exactly so.
Speaker 2:But what I, what people need to understand, is that, with Judge Kolger leaving and we have the Honorable Judge Drake as the judge in circuit court, with Judge Colger leaving and we have the Honorable Judge Drake as the judge in circuit court, we have Judge Horn, who is talking about retirement in a couple years. We have Superior Court I becoming vacant and hopefully that's the position that the electorate puts me in. And then we have Judge Cox, who's taking over Judge Dolehaney's position In a two-year period of time. Our judiciary would probably have about just a few years of experience. All new judges in all four courts, and that is something that you know.
Speaker 2:I see, yeah, it's such a dynamic that this election is important for people to get it right, because we've got to put someone in that position who is capable, who has worked in the areas of this particular courtroom, who has a lot of appellate experience, like I do, right? So you write opinions, you do research, you've done a lot of work. That's me right. I'm the guy that's done a lot of that compared to my opponents. And when you are looking at a rotation of the judiciary in such a short period of time, you have to make sure that you put someone in those positions who are capable. Our governors made two good decisions about Judge Drake and Judge Cox. Now the electorate gets to make a decision about what happens in Superior 1. And so how do I see our judiciary looking over the next few years? It's going to be very strong, because I have confidence that the electorate's going to elect me.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. That is great. So when you are the judge, I want to do a spinoff of Night Court, the television show. I love that show. That's like one of my favorite. It's like on Prime no, not Prime Peacock, yeah, On streaming Peacock every Tuesday or something. I love that show.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure who wants to be polled. I don't know if we could do quite the spinoff of that, but you got to get me in there somehow. I know we can't video cases, but I think it'd be cool to do a follow-up episode after you get elected in the courtroom. That would be crazy. A lot of fun. Oh yeah, just like today, yeah, so, um, when are we voting?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the um. You can register to vote all the way up until April 7th, I think as a Saturday, so maybe April 6th, so you can register all the way up until April 6th. April 9th starts early voting and the early voting is at certain locations, I think the courthouse and then maybe on weekends at like, the Golay Center, first English Lutheran Church. There are certain locations in Wayne County where you can vote early and then all the voting centers get opened up on May 7th for the last day. So early voting starts on April 9th, last day of voting, may 7th.
Speaker 1:Okay, and who are we voting for?
Speaker 2:We're voting for Ron Moore for judge of Wayne spirit Number one not the Supreme court.
Speaker 1:I'll leave that at the pizza place. Yeah, that's right Superior superior court. I'll write it on my hand before I go in the vote. There's not a Supreme on this ticket.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm a Republican candidate, so you have to pull the Republican ticket in order to vote. You know all of the all of the Republican. Let me put it this way the Republican ballot is very filled this year, from the presidential election to our congressional congressional candidates, to to our judges position. There's some other down-ticket elections that are really important too, but there's certainly, like I said, a really important reason why our electorate needs to get out and vote this year Absolutely, and that's because, quite honestly, if you really think about it right, a judge's position has probably more impact on our community than what people really recognize. It's incredibly important.
Speaker 2:This is the first year the first time, I'm sorry, this is the first time we've had a contested judicial election in 22 years. So, the last contested judicial election. Now we've had some changes of judges. Right, we've had changes of judges, but they've all been gubernatorial appointments. The governor has come out and said, okay, this is the person we're going to have. That takes it out of the electorate's hands. So the last time we've had a contested election has been 2002 between Judge Dolehany and Judge Holsher, and what we know is Judge Dolehany won, created a great legacy in Superior Court III, created family court. He's created a great legacy in Superior Court. Iii created family court. He's created some really great juvenile court initiatives. Those kinds of things don't come into play until the electorate gets involved, because when the governor comes out and appoints people, it takes it out of the electorate's hands, right.
Speaker 2:So it's really important that we have an active, active electorate this year, because a judicial position is truly important.
Speaker 1:Very cool. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything? We'll wrap it up. Is there anything you want to leave us with at all? I mean, we've covered a lot of stuff. I might. We might actually have two or three episodes out of this, which would be really cool. But if there's anything you want to leave us with, Hopefully you'll edit out a lot of the bad stuff.
Speaker 2:I'm stumbling over my words.
Speaker 1:No, that's all me. I'm the one that can't talk.
Speaker 2:Here's what I'd really like to leave you with. To be quite honest with you, I come from pretty humble beginnings. You know I'm not a I'm not the kind of guy where it's lost on me that people have needs and people have. People come into the legal system in pain, you know, and I I just it's really important for people to know that I'm an average person as far as like understanding where people come from. I'm not average when it comes to intellect. I'm not average when it comes to ability. I'm not average when it comes to desire to be in a courtroom.
Speaker 2:You know, I've wanted to be in a courtroom my entire life. Uh, as far as you know, being a lawyer, I wanted to be in a courtroom from the day that I graduated all the way till today, and I still want to be in a courtroom. I just want to be behind the bench and I know that that's my calling. It's a noble calling and I love the practice of law. It is a noble profession where we can help people and I know that behind the bench I can help more people. It's really important people and I know that behind the bench, I can help more people.
Speaker 1:It's really important and that's good, because from my personal experience with you and I've told people I talked I'm very vulnerable. I like I've learned this whole power of vulnerability thing and throughout all my fuck-ups in life and everything else, and then sobriety and whatnot but we can sit down at the country club and shoot the shit with people. We can also sit down at any little tavern, you know, and we love all of these people equally and we see all of them as human. I love, we understand. You know what I mean, like, and that's that's the thing, um is that you're very empatheticetic and like we've talked about all evening, it's about that human being and what they need. So that's what's really cool, man.
Speaker 2:Well, I tell you it's. You know, no one wants to talk about their worst five moments in their life.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:And yet in the judicial system, in the legal system, that's what we deal with, and you know, good people find themselves in situations that are not the best situation, but that's where someone who has empathy, compassion and talent and ability has to all merge together. It has to in order for there to be an effective judge who really can call those balls and strikes in a way that really is meaningful for them. That's what we need absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, man, I appreciate you coming up here hanging out so thank you for the time.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate the opportunity and I'm gonna hold you to it. You get elected and we have to do something in the courtroom. You got some type of video. I think it'd be cool, just a follow-up. You can talk, I'll follow you for a day or something like that. We'll see how that goes. Yeah, I'm following you everywhere. I don't want to know everything, but that'd be fun. So got it all right. Thanks, that's it, man. Appreciate you. Life inscripted with kevin shook.
